Calling Out: Sex & Sexuality - Part 1
This week we start our dive into a discussion on Sex & Sexuality. We will be looking at topics relating to these subjects, some of which may not seem entirely relevant, but they are. Topics like male and female body image, consent, cat-calling, and plain old listening.
The format is different than the last series - there were no questions. This was an informal discussion about the topic and I let the conversation go where it needed and wanted to.
To let you the reader know, this was a 3-hour long discussion and I couldn’t include everything. If you are interested in all that was said, shoot me a message and I’ll send you the full transcript.
Without further ado, let me introduce Josh Gauthier. He is a writer and novelist from Maine. He has a brand new book out that’s pretty great - you should go buy it. He is a wordsmith, a complete nerd, and a dear friend of mine.
Hi. So thank you for being willing to sit down and talk with me. I know in our last interview we talked about how you grew up in a very conservative culture. I grew up similarly and a lot of people I had spoken to agreed that no one really talks about sex and sexuality within the church. It’s a subconscious thing that’s not spoken about explicitly. Then people shape their own ideas about it or they fumble through life trying to figure it out. It can be toxic or it can be healthy. There’s a lot to all of this, I know.
Yeah, and I probably will have a lot of thoughts on all of that. So we’ll see what’s interesting and where things end up.
If you would like, could you speak more to the male side of things?
Yeah, ok. So I think I mentioned some before with the circles I’m in that we talk about a lot of this stuff. It’s a lot of different things, but about gender, sexuality, and the patriarchy. That’s a common discussion. So, I get pieces of the perspective from all over. [And looking at this from the beginning] there’s this inability to have a reasonable conversation or be informed about sex or the other sex. Then even the people who do sincerely want to talk about it have to overcome those barriers before you can get anything done. It’s like you have to convince people that this is a reasonable thing to talk about or even know about.
I understand that. There were definitely times in my life where you couldn’t even say the word sex. You just didn’t do that. Then I got past that and it was still this huge obscure thing that I was intrigued with, but ya know don’t do it or you’ll go to hell or die from an STI or get a baby. Now I’m fine with everything, but there’s all these other layers that come with it. There’s so much emotional, spiritual, physical, and societal layers. It’s all very real and I’m not scared of any of these layers, so let’s talk about it.
Right. Why not? There are very serious pieces to it with some deeper repercussions, but the way it’s often handled is not right. It’s a very basic human impulse and to just ignore it and say, you’ll be fine. That’s not good.
Ignoring anything and hoping it’ll go away is not going to work. You have to acknowledge it then work through it.
Exactly.
“This is not shameful, this is something to take care of. It’s an important piece of your life to handle responsibly.”
And I think you’re right. It is a basic human impulse. God gave it to us, this ability to be sexual, but we’re supposed to steward that in a certain way. That’s part of control. That’s part of getting older and maturity, but we’re still made to be that.
I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head but I’ve seen comparisons of informed sex ed vs abstinence only education and they looked at the rates of unwanted pregnancies and STI’s. It’s so much higher on the abstinence only side because they’re told don’t do this. Then when they do decide and make those decisions they have no base of knowledge to work from. I think that carries all the way through to the wedding night. When people do get married and they’re terrified because they have no idea what they’re doing.
It’s definitely about being informed and telling people what sex is. Giving them information to make the right decisions and part of that is not shaming them when and if they decide to have sex. Instead say, hey, these are the consequences good and bad of what will happen if you do and if you don’t. I think everything, at least in the church, is always skewed negatively in that kind of conversation.
Right. Well, they’re told sex outside of marriage is terrible and bad, but then they watch TV and read books and hear from their friends who say, hey, this is really enjoyable. So, when those two things are at odd with each other, there’s no way to really reconcile it. They have to decide which one is lying to them and one side is louder and more persuasive than the other just by default. I liked your stewardship term. This is not shameful, this is something to take care of. It’s an important piece of your life to handle responsibly. And that puts it in an entirely different framework where it is a good thing that you will enjoy and it’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s being mindful of what you do with that and it will be better for you in the long run.
Right and I think a lot of this starts by being open and vulnerable and just wanting to talk about it. Like, I want to know if and when I’m wrong. Please correct me, let’s have a conversation. I think there are topics that need to be heard and need to be said because I was raised in a place where we didn’t talk about anything. I have friends that talk about the heteronormative and I’m realizing how ingrained in me that is. I never realized it before because I grew up very conservative, white, straight, living in a small town. So, now, it’s just having these conversations.
Well, it’s interesting how much culture and history plays a role in that because 50 years ago women couldn’t open their own bank account. We talk about how no one wants to commit to marriage and the divorce rate has gone up but then we point that out. Or that women actually have the ability to leave and survive and not be murdered by their husbands while they get off free. And there’s a lot more going on that hasn’t been talked about. If we can actually talk about those things with information and actual facts, it’s much more effective than assumptions of the status quo. So many people on the conservative side of it don’t even have basic medical facts. I hear some of these old white guys talk about women’s bodies and they’re so wrong. If you don’t even know basics, who are you to tell me anything else?
“It’s not the girl’s fault. It’s self-preservation. Like it’s a real thing.”
I’m still learning things about women’s bodies. Me, a woman, who’s still learning things. I can’t imagine a guy, especially an old white guy set in his ways. And I know in the last series there were a lot of men that expressed the same sentiment - that there was this kind of locker room talk or locker room mentality that men strive for. I know being on the receiving end as a woman, knowing that’s his mentality to just get another notch in his belt, it’s really hurtful.
Right. Yeah. I think I was talking to someone just today about this and how much it damages friendships. That women are realizing they don’t have friends, they just have guys who are trying to hook up with them. And how that ruins everything. It goes back to this whole cultural idea that men and women can’t be friends because there’s always a sexual attitude going on. Which doesn’t help anybody. It’s all this pressure. It’s this fear. My co-workers talk about being cat-called all the time. They’re just walking down the street and it’s this performative manliness or worse, they actually believe it. But it makes existence so unsafe for women. It’s terrible.
I totally feel that. I have maybe 3-4 guys friends that, as far as I’m aware, don’t want to sleep with me - you included. But most of my guy friends, like almost all of them, have wanted that. It’s broken my heart again and again. And dude I have so many cat-calling stories. The funniest one, this guy stopped his car in the middle of an intersection to cat-call me.
I thought you were gonna say he got rear ended which would’ve been perfect.
Oh that would’ve. I just don’t understand, what makes a man be like, I’m gonna stop my car in the middle of the road, the middle of an intersection, to cat-call this girl.
I’ve actually seen screenshots of these guys who’ve convinced themselves it’s actually a compliment. Then they get offended when women don’t like it. I’ve even seen guys calling out other guys in discussion posts on the whole putting hands on hips or the back when trying to get past women. Like, would you do that to a guy or have you ever done that to a man as you’re walking past? Man’s ability to delude ourselves is remarkable. Like, I just need to get past it’s completely harmless.
“Women are stripped of agency, but men are often stripped of choice.”
Right. Like how do you naturally go past someone? You can say excuse me and not touch them. I think I’ve freaked guys out before because every so often I will touch them. I’ll put my hand on their back and they’ll jump. It’s the funniest thing, because they don’t expect it.
Then there’s women who stopped stepping aside for men on the sidewalk and have run into them.
Oh I’ve done that too. It’s really great. It’s like men have this privilege that I don’t quite understand.
I mean some guys definitely own it and embrace it but I wonder how much of it is cultural. Which is not to excuse it but how much are people just not thinking about it because it naturally happens. That should put pressure on them to stop and think, but much of this is subconsciously ingrained. It’s the expectation that you do automatically and I think that’s where the good conversations about masculinity and relations come out. It forces people to stop and think for a change….I’m gonna circle back to what we touched on at the beginning if that’s ok. There’s been a discussion about age appropriate sex ed. When it should be introduced, not using euphemisms, and introducing kids to consent even through hugs, giving them agency of their own bodies. If they don’t want to hug Grandpa Joe then that’s ok but it’s more about convincing Grandpa Joe that this kid doesn’t want a hug right now.
Mm hmm. I’ve been seeing these as well. I think they’re great discussion to be having.
Especially with girls and women who, I mean you know better than I do, have much more pressure in terms of self-agency. Even at your example of guys flinching when you’re going past. It’s much more ingrained that the guys can make those decisions where women are not afforded the same level of freedom.
It’s also, very common for women to placate men. Where they don’t really want to give them a hug or talk to them or kiss them or whatever, but they will still do it to get the guy to stop. That it’s just easier to do that than say no. I have done it multiple times with multiple men. There isn’t the guarantee of how a guy is going to respond, even if you know them. Some guys will be like, ok that’s fine you don’t want to, I respect you and it’s ok. Other ones can take huge offense at it. So, you just never really know. From there it starts to go into conversations of sexual assault and rape and the gray areas that exist in that and why it can happen. Sometimes it happens because girls are scared to say no.
It’s not the girl’s fault. It’s self-preservation. Like, it’s a real thing.
Absolutely, and it starts here. With conversations with little children about if they want a hug or not.
I’ve seen discussions online of men realizing how many sexual interactions they’ve had that were probably not consensual, but they weren’t forcing it. The woman wasn’t exactly trying to avoid confrontation, but wasn’t actually pursuing it. They were just trying to get through. And it’s a really important area because it’s these guys who would never physically force a woman to do something, but go right up to that line or pressure. Which is very similar. I think it gets very gray.
Exactly because so much of what we’re taught in school of what peer pressure is and how the guy is going to be super aggressive isn’t usually what it actually looks like. Even in just giving a hug. It’s more subtle and the pressure is this expectation where you’re like, I’m already in this situation I can either not do this. Which will do one of two things - de-escalate everything, he won’t be mad at me, and we’ll still be friends or acquaintances or whatever. Or it’s going to escalate everything and he’s going to be super aggressive like what you hear about. And depending on the relationship with that guy will also influence that decision. And part of it is that you think, well it’s not hurting him and it’s not really hurting me so what does it matter. But it does hurt you. It chips away at consent because you aren’t sticking up for yourself and your boundaries until you get to a point where you don’t know if you even have any.
“Men can be awesome.”
Yeah, I’ve watched analogies that people are putting out now about money and tea. Some really simple examples of what consent actually means. Like you offer someone tea and they say no, you’re not going to pour it down their throat. Tea in itself is good and they might’ve wanted it yesterday but it doesn’t mean they want it again today.
Yeah and this concept doesn’t have to exist just when you’re single or dating. Marital rape is a thing that exists….So I do want to say, men can be awesome. They should be awesome. Where they can be totally strong and take care of you and lead, but be soft and gentle and supporting of their woman. Like, yeah, she can do anything, but also he can take care of the kids and that dynamic can live together. These things we’re talking about don’t have to be one or the other.
Right. I think it goes back to that social pressure of what men think men are supposed to look like. Which is not that. It then leads into these defense mechanisms of attacking and hating women. Culture has kind of built up this he-man image that guys are supposed to measure themselves up against. The perfect image for men and women is so damaging in different ways….I think it was an article or discussion a while back that was talking about the differences in the male and female body in movies. With women it’s always sexual whereas with a man it’s almost always comedic. So it carries inherently at the fundamental level. Like a woman wheres a bikini and it’s slow motion so you can see everything. A guy wears a speedo and it’s a running gag.
Absolutely. I saw a Tik Tok actually, where this girl was talking about the first time she saw a naked man and she was disgusted. She couldn’t understand why because she was straight and attracted to men until she realized it was because of the media. In film we talk about the male gaze. Most films are shot this way. It’s how female bodies are highly sexualized and you can see absolutely everything but not the man’s. You rarely will see a guy from the waist down unless it’s for comedic purposes. It’s what’s made movies like Promising Young Woman so different.
Right, you just don’t see it as for women as you do for men. Even regardless of color, it’s all the male gaze in film of just how it looks at women and where the shots are angled.
And I know we’ve been talking about women but all of this happens to men too. I remember watching 90 Day Fiance and these guys threw a bachelor party and made the stripper dance on the bachelor. He’s telling them no, no, no. You can tell the stripper is just there because it’s her job, meanwhile his friends are laughing and acting like it’s no big deal. And I’m sitting there watching sexual assault happen.
Terry Crews talked about how hard it was for him to talk about his assault, that he wasn’t even taken seriously because not only is he a man but he’s very fit and tough looking. You know, women are stripped of agency but men are often stripped of choice. It’s this assumption that any man always wants sex no matter what. That’s exactly the harmful pressure that gets put on men. And if men are assaulted by a women then it’s not treated the same way because of course a guy’s going to be happy about it, that’s how it works.
Yeah but not every guy wants to have sex. Not every guy even likes you. It’s a personal decision. And it’s something that’s hard to see in culture because culture wants to say men are highly sexual things that always want sex and are always pursuing it. So, why would a guy say no? If they’re saying no something must be wrong with them.
Exactly.
I think I’ve heard that a lot of trauma happens with guys because they’re told they’re not masculine enough or not manly enough. Then they’re stuck with what does that mean if I’m not manly or not this or not that? What does that look like? It can range from everything from physicality, like I’ve heard guys talk about penis size all the way up to their muscles and whether they can provide for the family with their job. I think it’s all so detrimental for a guy. I could be wrong, you can tell me.
I think you’re 100% right. Luckily I haven’t faced that. I’m not your typical alpha male. I’m more the analytical, sensitive, thoughtful type just by default.
And as I’m currently processing that perhaps that trauma, from not being masculine enough, they then project onto women. Like I’ve had multiple guys throughout my life say various things to me about all those aspects. They project it onto me about what I should expect their masculinity should be like. Or what the ideal should be. Things like I’m the best you’ve ever had, only I can provide this, I’m the biggest, whatever. The fragility of the male ego is astounding.
I think they’re all self-perpetuating cycles. I think it’s either that men have been hurt or they’re afraid of being hurt by those things. Sometimes it’s men who have been challenged and made fun of for those things but also, I think we see it in entitled men. So it has to be preserved at all costs.
I know we have to wrap up soon, is there anything else you want to add?
The short version, there’s not enough open, honest, and informed conversations. And all of this takes place within a culture that has self-perpetuating structures that affect men and women and their interactions with each other. So, if we could take a step back, stop being defensive, and talk honestly then we could find that middle ground that’s less reactionary. One that has biblical and sensible rules where God blends health and safety at its core. Keeping consent and mindfulness and recognition and concern for other people.
We’ll be delving further into this topic hitting on feminism, the LGBTQ community, and how it looks within the context of marriage.
I hope you stay tuned and continue to follow me as I walk down this road.