Drop In For A New Book
On this journey of figuring out purity, sex, and sexuality I’ve been led to a few good books and I wanted to share them with you. They are ones that have helped me think a little bit differently, understand my body and spirit better, and begun to help me formulate my opinions on these subjects.
Now, I’m not saying these two books are the end all - it’s only two books after all. I’m saying, they are good starting points if you’re looking at expanding your knowledge and understanding of purity, sex, and sexuality.
Both are written from a Christian viewpoint, although they do have differing opinions from each other. I wouldn’t say they contradict one another, but they bring up points to help you think.
First off, The Naked Truth About Sexuality by Havilah Cunnington.
This book is great for anyone, you don’t have to be interested in sex or actively seeking it to read this. It’s a book that takes a look at purity, sex, and sexuality in a Biblical context starting with Genesis.
If you’re like me, that reading is only ever talked about in the context of how women are made for the pleasure of men. That’s not what happens here. Havilah Cunnington breaks down how we were made for sex and sexual pleasure on a biological level.
She goes to explain what chemicals are involved when we have sex, why we get attached to people, and why it’s so hard when we break up or why hookups become so easy - and by the way, her definition of sex is a little mind-blowing. She talks about how sex could be defined as holding hands or giving a hug because the same chemicals that are released during intercourse are the exact same as when you hug someone.
I’m sorry what?? But also, that makes sense as to why I got attached to guys when all they wanted to do was cuddle.
She goes further than the biological stuff - which if you’re wondering, no she doesn’t go into the actual physicality of sex, that’s a different book - and talks about how we also get attached to people in spirit. It’s called soul ties and they also make it hard to let go of someone after having sex because sex strengthens the soul tie.
The best part of this book, is that even though she advocates for sex in marriage and not premarital sex, she doesn’t condemn the person who does. She lets the reader know that there is always hope and that your worth isn’t tied to whether or not you had sex before or after marriage.
Since this book is by the Moral Revolution, she acknowledges the hurt the church has caused from the purity movement stating that we shouldn’t feel ashamed of our bodies and our sex. That there is a healthier way to live, which does include sex, we just have to look for it.
4 out of 5 stars - it taught me a lot about the body and myself that I had no idea about. And honestly, I had to read this book by taking it one chapter at a time. Sometimes a chapter wrecked me so much that I had to put the book down and come back to it in a few weeks later.
It’s good. You should read it.
Next up, On Her Knees: Memoir of a Prayerful Jezebel by Brenda Marie Davies.
This one, guys this one.
I do think anyone can, and should, read this book, but I think it will hit harder for those who’ve been asking the questions like: can I have sex before marriage and not go to hell? Well, I have to stay with my abusive boyfriend because we are having sex and I won’t be wanted by anyone else, right? I have to marry him because I slept with him, right? I’m not welcomed at the church anymore because I’m not clean, a virgin, a “good girl”, whatever….
Brenda Marie Davies grew up during the purity culture movement. She got the purity ring, she swore she’d wait ‘til marriage, and was the good Christian girl. Well, all that changed when she came out to LA.
In this book Davies talks about her struggle with sex and the church, specifically the voice she calls The Antagonist which was created by the purity culture movement. She is someone who swore she’d wait but craved sex. When she finally had it, she lived in shame and fear of condemnation.
It’s a feeling a lot of men and women have in the church. She chronicles her life talking about how she got married to a guy just because she wanted to “make it right”. When that ended she landed in hookup culture which led to her rape and her getting involved with an abusive boyfriend who made her have an abortion.
This, you guys is a powerful book about a woman’s struggle to find her worth and value as seen through her sex. She couldn’t find it in the church but never abandoned God. She ended up doing a lot of the things she was against as a child because let’s face it, life is gray. We all make choices with the information in front of us.
Davies asks great questions about consent, LGBTQ+ issues, men’s body image, abortion, rape, self worth, healthy sex practices, and what we as the church have done to those around us. It’s challenging and inspiring.
This is a book that a friend recommended to me saying, “I have never felt more seen than while reading this book.” And let me tell you, I agree 100% with this statement.
5 out of 5 stars - I would recommend this to anyone. Absolutely anyone, male or female. I will give you a warning, Davies doesn’t hold anything back. She swears, she descriptive about her sexual exploits (not over the top, it has class), and the rape and abortion scenes don’t pull punches. She’s real and in this day and age in the church that’s exactly what we need.
I’m always reading so, I’ll post some more book recommendations as I go through them. Let me know your thoughts!
Calling Out: Sex and Sexuality - Part 3
We are in our third part of the series. First I would like to acknowledge the fact that, yes, this is two weeks late. I would like to stay honest and open with you so, I’m going to admit that I have been massively depressed these last few weeks.
Depression is something I’ve struggled with most of my life and sometimes that does keep me from doing things that I love - like this blog - because, ya know, what’s the point? Well, the point is that even if no one else is reading this. Even if I’m talking to myself on a weekly(ish) basis, I’m seeking answers and truth. I want to get to the heart of my own heart problems and the hurts caused by the church. I’m excited to share this journey with whoever wants to come with me, but I don’t expect anyone to.
With that let me transition.
A few weeks back I had the pleasure of sitting down and talking with Lane Bachelder, a screenwriter from right here in LA.
Thank you for joining me today, Lane. So, let’s just jump in. Currently, I’m exploring sex and sexuality and how it interacts with daily life. To give a starting question, what does sex and/ sexuality mean to you or how were you introduced to it? Was it through school, your parents, or religion?
I guess I never really received a particular introduction. It was something that I had to figure out on my own. My parents never talked to me about sex, I never got the talk. I didn’t really have a sex ed type of class until the sixth grade, but even then it was a very heteronormative discussion. So I always thought that was the only way. I guess, I kind of realized that when I was gay I didn’t have a concept of what gay was. Growing up I only knew it as guys who acted feminine. So, I mostly had to figure that stuff out on my own.
How did you figure it out? Was it talking to other people, the media or internet, or a little bit of all of it?
Because I didn’t really have anyone to talk to about it, most of it came through TV shows and movies, and also the Internet.
So, I’m trying to find a way to phrase this properly, was what you found more educational or was it just like, oh, this is just another way for sex and sexuality. It doesn’t have to be heteronormative like what you were seeing before.
Yeah, it more helped me come to terms with my own identity in my sexuality. I think exploring the more graphic kind of sexual stuff I realized what I was into and how to express myself in that way.
And I know you grew up in a small town, it was in Iowa, right? So coming out of that small Iowa town to come to California, how has that transition been?
Well, I started exploring my sexuality during undergrad when I was still in Iowa. There wasn’t really much transition when I moved out here. I kind of already knew who I was.
Ok, yeah. Do you think where you grew up affected you at all because of culture or if there was something else at play. Whether it was religion or something like we don’t do this because we just don’t.
I think it’s like a lot of small towns. I didn’t have any avenues to explore it. You know, it’s just something that doesn’t really exist. Like I could go to my classmates but I felt this fear in the back of my mind that things could go bad if I did come out. So it took a lot for me to come to terms with that. My town just didn’t have the support system for me. I guess if you want to talk religion, um, I didn’t grow up super religious. We did go to church. I went to Sunday school and I’m a confirmed Methodist. I think as I started to accept my sexuality, I began to reject religion more. Just because, you know usually religion and gays don’t mix. It’s kind of a thing. You can definitely be gay and still be religious but for me, I just felt like it wasn’t something I needed in my life.
Yeah, it sounds like it didn’t come from your town or from the church, it was just as you grew into yourself you realized that wasn’t what you wanted.
Right.
I think it’s good to figure out as you grow beyond your town and look back to see, that they just didn’t have those support systems in place for you. When you talk about fear, it seems there’s not just an inward fear but also this outward fear. Like this societal pressure to live up to a standard, or is that something else?
I think it’s a subtle pressure because straight people don’t have to come out as straight. It’s like we’re conditioned with all these stories of how someone came out and got kicked out. You hear them and of course you’re going to think a certain way about your sexuality and whether you should tell people or not. So yeah, sometimes it feels best to suppress it, even though it’ s better now as we get more into the 21st century. It’s not as big an issue these days. I think about small towns in particular it’s harder because if you’re from a city there’s so many avenues. You have probably ten other kids in your grade who are also LGBTQ+.
Do you think it’s more that they tell those stories to create fear on purpose? Like I know there are kids who did legitimately get kicked out of their house or even shunned, but we also hear stories where people were welcomed by their family.
I think it’s more of a societal thing. We like to focus on the bad rather than the good. You know, just like those stories we could tell of ten other good ones. But it’s those stories that stick around more than the good ones.
Yeah and fear snowballs. You hear about one bad thing or anything that’s going to happen and it builds into anxiety. Which unfortunately can be bigger than a good story that creates peace and reassurance. Transitioning a bit, how do you feel about representation in films and TV?
I like representation, I think it’s always good to see yourself on screen. I also personally feel like you can identify with any character, whether they look like you or not. I can see myself in all sorts of characters regardless of their gender, sex, race, whatever. I find value in those sort of films because no matter what the characters are going through there’s usually something I can identify with. If I can’t identify with a character, I typically don’t enjoy the film.
“I never received a particular introduction...My sexuality was something I had to figure out on my own.”
How do you feel about the transition happening in film with more diverse casting, diverse stories, and the shift from male to female gaze?
Of course it’s always great to have more diverse voices, it allows your audience to have a wider perspective. It’s great to see that happening in terms of the male and female gaze. It’s good to see women in particular with the male gaze not being represented in such an overtly sexual manner or in scenes where they’re seen as objects.
Yeah, and women are kind of subverting the gaze. Like they’re showing men how a man would be shown through a woman’s eyes.
There’s this really good movie called Portrait of a Lady on Fire. It’s about a woman looking at another woman. They have elements like structuring the woman’s hair around male gaze with the female gazing at her.
Isn’t that like your favorite movie?
Not my favorite but I really enjoyed it.
Gotcha. So I know you also have a little different take on monogamy, considering you reject it and have embraced polyamory. Could you talk a little about that?
Yeah. This is something that’s still very new to me. It’s something that I realized like a year and a half ago or two years maybe. It came about when I learned my parents were separating. I think I looked at that and was like, I’m not sure that I want that, it doesn’t seem like it’s something that works. So I began to explore different options and found the polyamory community. The things that people talk about while being in a polyamorous relationship just make more sense to me. Like you are still in a committed relationship with someone, but you can also continue to explore yourself with other people. To me that’s a lot more freeing and open. It makes more sense in my mind that you can be with someone, but also be able to be with other people as well. I think it also takes away a lot of pressure, like having an affair.
Can you still cheat while in a polyamorous relationship?
Yeah. I talked to someone who was in an open relationship and they broke up because the person cheated on them. They said that their partner just didn’t tell them about the other person they were with. So, yeah, it’s about open communication.
I think I’ve heard you describe it before, and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s like you have one main partner but then you have other ones for things like cuddling or another form of intimacy. And what you have to do is tell your main partner, I’m seeing this person for this activity. Which I know you have started dating someone, and we don’t have to talk about him if you’re not comfortable with that.
It’s ok. I do know he is seeing someone else for other reasons and I’m fine with that.
Did you tell you what those reasons were?
Yeah. So here’s the thing, the kinky community tends to be polyamorous in general. I think with me being kinky it kind of led me down this road to polyamory. Like you can be in a relationship with someone, but you can also play with other guys. It’s something that’s kind of natural within the community. So, yeah, my boyfriend has a sir that he goes to see and I’m ok with it.
Ok, I didn’t know if he was real vague about it like I am seeing someone but doesn’t tell you anything else. But it sounds like you do know what happens and may know who that person is?
Right.
So the communication sounds open and honest. It’s not secretive or anything like that. At least that’s what I’m getting from you.
Yeah.
“I think it’s more of a societal thing. We like to focus on the bad rather than the good.”
So, the concept of polyamory has been around for a long time. I think society tends to feed us an idea that you have to find your one and that’s it. Rom coms are kind of built off of that idea. It’s love at first sight type of stuff.
Yeah, which is another reason why rom coms don’t appeal to me. I reject the notion that there’s only one person out there and you must find happiness with that one person.
I get that. I don’t think there’s just one person out there for everyone. I think we have different people for different stages in our lives. I am monogamist so I think if you find someone when you’re 20 you should make an effort to grow with each other, but divorce happens. What do you say to the person who’s lost their spouse or is recently broken up?
Yeah, my mom’s dating another guy but like my dad, is still hung up on my mom. It’s like he’s having a hard time moving on. It’s different for everyone.
It really is.
But I really don’t want one and done. That’s so terrifying to me.
Are you kidding? I only want one. It’d be too much work to have to juggle more than one. So, when I start thinking about the kinky community, I remember you were the one who first started talking to me about it. So, I think you can speak more into than I can.
That’s another weird thing, how do we develop our fetishes and kinks? It’s like I don’t know how I developed mine. For me, it’s just always been there ever since I started thinking about sex. Like, I would just think about guys being tied up.
Was it like fantasies you had or things you watched?
Maybe. Definitely there were movies and TV shows that had an impression on me but I feel like I was at a young age.
Yeah, I feel like that would be an interesting study to see why and what ones impact your life. I know I’m real vanilla but I actually would like to explore those different types of things. There is a little bit of a fear just being a Christian, raised in a conservative home in a small town. There’s almost an unspoken mindset that you have to have vanilla sex and you can’t do anything else. It’s like you don’t talk about it, that’s not something you should even want to try but they still say things like “spice up the bedroom”.
When I was first having kinky experiences, I was very discreet about it. I didn’t want anyone to know. As I’m getting older and more comfortable with it, I’ve been more open about it all. If it was five, six years ago, I would’ve never told you that I was having it. And even with the kinky stuff, TV usually portrays it very negatively. Really, with all this you just start off slow.
I think as I’m moving forward in my life I’m starting to redefine and realize exactly how I would like to sex again. What may be included will probably change but maybe I can find a guy who would like to explore these things with me. And I know right now the BDSM community is leading a lot of great discussions about consent. I mean, all of it is about consent and making sure everything is ok with your partner every step of the way.
Bondage can be dangerous so, if that’s something you’re exploring you have to always keep that in the back of your mind. And consent is a natural part of it.
I think it often goes back to the communication piece you were talking about earlier. And I know I was reading something about a dom and a sub where the dom was making sure the sub was ok not just physically but mentally and emotionally as well. In this, the dom realized the sub was not ok physically even though they were saying yes mentally and emotionally. It’s this notion that consent is about all three, physical, mental, and emotional. You can be in different places with each of those things even if you verbally say yes.
“I reject the notion that there’s only one person out there and you must find happiness with that one person.”
I think that is some of the first things I had ever heard about consent, just in general. It’s definitely something that you have to be mindful of, like you don’t have to be kinky for all these things to come into play. Even looking back on my own experiences, there’s been some that I wasn’t enjoying.
Which is why they talk about enthusiastic consent now and there are great discussions happening in multiple areas. Even with small children.
Yeah, I don’t think we should be afraid to educate our children on sex. It’s about working with them in an age appropriate context.
Which I totally agree with.
I would like to thank Lane for taking the time to sit down with me.
Next week, I think I’m gonna do something a little different and have a few book reviews for you. If you’re not a reader, what’s wrong with you? I’m kidding, but seriously, these are some fantastic books that you should definitely pick up and read pronto.
Calling Out: Sex & Sexuality - Part 2
Welcome back for another part to this series!
This week we’re chatting with Gabby Gore, a screenwriter out of Seattle, WA.
Just like last week, there were no formal questions. I let conversation flow as it may. This one was a bit shorter, but if you would like the full transcript let me know. I’ll send it your way.
Thank you for taking time to join me. I guess let’s jump in with a starting question to get this whole thing going. Sex and sexuality are so inherent and ingrained in our culture - whether it’s media, how we grew up, or just day to day living within relationships - it really effects us. I think I noticed that especially within the last series. So how you interpret that throughout your life? What does sex and sexuality mean to you, and we can go from there.
That’s a lot.
I know.
I guess, well, I’ve always been interested in sex. I think ever since I entered puberty and had those hormones kick in. I always knew I would be a pretty sexual person when I came of age. I don’t know where it came from, if it’s just how I was built. Neither of my parents have shown any indication that sex is something on their minds or part of their lives, at least to me. And it’s not a religious thing. It’s just not their thing, especially my mom. Even her parents were that way. They never said sex was bad, none of that, it was just never mentioned. I feel like in my mind there’s just a walking WAP song. I listened to that song and I was like me, me. I want that. I want all of that. Yes, I feel that. So, I don’t know if it’s nature vs nurture. I definitely was not nurtured to feel this way or understand that sex isn’t normal. It is totally normal. I remember stealing cosmos when I was a preteen and I didn’t know what any of it meant but I was still intrigued by it.
I know you’ve talked before about how you grew up in a conservative town where they didn’t talk about sex. It was a culture heavily influenced by the Mormon Church.
Yeah and you know, I had friends that weren’t super religious but it was something you just didn’t discuss. You didn’t talk about it. Even when we were in high school and people were having sex, they still didn’t talk about it. So, I sought a lot of stuff out. When I went to college, in my freshman year I took human sexuality. It was a very polarizing class because you have people who grew up with the idea that sex is bad. Their whole thing was that this was just the class that you watched pornography. It was nicknamed the porn class. There were other people who thought it was intriguing and interesting. Me being a little freshman was like, hehe the porn class, and I took it with two of my friends. We were going to see what it was all about and it ended up being one of the most useful, best classes I ever took. It was structured so academically. We looked at what sex means to different cultures and how we as a society came to interpret sex now. And they did have porn Fridays but they were instructional porn videos. The videos were literally what it says, instructional sex.
My brain is going Monty Python with what this could mean. I think they did one once where it was very sarcastic but also instructional.
Once they hook you with that then they go in the biology of sex. So, the hormone cycles, the different phases of arousal and when you climax. It’s basically storyboarding but we learned all the biology to it. Then we learned about sexual deviancy like how pedophiles come to be, sexual assault, and the ramifications of sex crimes. That kind of stuff. It was really heavy but really interesting. That was the first time I had truly learned about that and we had some really good conversations surrounding consent. So the professor would throw a question up like if a guy forced himself on a girl is that rape? Almost 100% would say yes. Then she’d ask if he was married to her would you feel the same way? That really shook the whole class because we never thought about it in those terms. Just because you’re in a relationship with someone or are married to them, does that automatically give consent to every future sexual encounter? I had never heard consent stated like that. Some of the other things I learned was about the transgender community and the BDSM community. Members of the community came into the class and spoke to us about what it truly means to be a part of the community. I think it all further intrigued me me and made me want to be more sex positive. It was really the first time I felt like I had knowledge that I could go forth into the world with.
“Just because you are in a relationship or married to someone, does that automatically give consent to every future sexual encounter?”
That sounds really interesting. I know we had a sex ed class in high school, but it wasn’t that at all. It was your standard abstinence class. They had people talk about condoms and STIs and things like that but it was very basic. I think they talked more about alcohol than they did sex. And we never looked at consent that way. It’s cool that you had access to a class like that. It seems like a great opportunity.
It was. I recommended that class to everyone. Some people got uncomfortable when I would mention it. They would be like, that’s just the porn class. Like, no, you learn other stuff. And I don’t think teenagers or minors need to be watching porn in their high schools, but I do think that learning about the culture of sex and aligning the biology behind it, learning about consent, sex crimes, things like that is important.
Oh absolutely. I’m thinking of who I was as a high schooler, I don’t know if I would’ve taken that class but I probably needed it.
No, this wasn’t high school. I took this when I was in undergrad when I as in Seattle.
Oh ok.
This is a bit of a side tangent, but I’m pretty close friends with some of my high school friends still and some of them were a part of the Mormon community. One of my friends was sexually assaulted and she went to tell the leaders of the church. Instead of asking what happened, they victim blamed her. And because virginity is such a huge deal, they shunned her from the church even though it wasn’t her fault. It totally messed up her relationship with the church. She’s no longer a Mormon because of it. It’s always stuff like that where people need the communities they’re in, but usually they’re the most unhelpful, especially religious ones.
I can’t speak for all of them, but even the Christian community doesn’t speak about sex in a positive way. They’re trying to and I can see it, but they’re still shy and they don’t really know how to come at it because for a lot of Christians it’s the same way, you stay a virgin until marriage. So, they don’t know how to talk about sex in a healthy manner. They do better with assault victims. I do think this needs to be an open conversation about why is it your choice and understanding that God doesn’t hate you. He doesn’t shame you for wanting it.
From what I remember from that class, when we were learning about different cultures, the ancient European cultures - like before Christ - viewed sex as strictly procreation. Like, you do not have this for pleasure. One of the things that was talked about was how shame is so connected to it because when those cultures turned to Christianity, they used the stuff in the Bible to justify their practices. You’re more familiar with it than I am, but they said it was less civil so they justified their actions and it just kind of stuck.
I can’t think of any verses off the top of my head which they would’ve used however I know it’s a common practice for the church throughout history to grab random verses to justify their actions. Rather than looking at those verses in context and seeing what it is that the verse is actually saying. So, I can understand how that happens. Especially if it goes on through all of history and culture, and is widely accepted so now we have this really condemning practice that hurts and shames people. We really need to stop and look at what we’re saying and doing. People shouldn’t be taking random verses out of the Bible to justify their own actions.
I think a lot of it too has to do with Catholicism being the main role of Christianity for hundreds of years. The Virgin Mary and that whole aspect of how you come to terms with the Immaculate Conception. It’s this ultimate form of purity or sainthood in the fact that she had Jesus without ever being touched. Which is a ridiculous standard to hold women to, but here we are.
Yeah, I don’t really know because I haven’t looked into it enough to know if they hold virginity as such a high standard because of the Virgin Mary or not. If it is, it’s a real shit one. Honestly, Jesus himself holds prostitutes in high regard. There are many notable prostitutes and women who aren’t virgins throughout the Bible. Many believe Jesus himself was married and didn’t die a virgin. Then you say virginity is the highest form we have to reach? It brings in this very conflicting morality and feelings.
Yeah. I feel like me versus a lot of other people you talk to - with the exception of like two - didn’t grow up in super Christian cultures. Mine was weird because we didn’t talk about it but it wasn’t a religious thing. I know I want to have kids someday and when I get there I want them to be able to have good educational conversations with them early on. To not have them feel shame or feel like they need to keep something secret.
“I guess I’m of the mindset if you’re doing it in a healthy, safe, and consensual way...why does it matter?”
Oh absolutely. I myself am trying to figure out what it means to be fully educated and have open conversations with others my own age surrounding this, let alone children. I know there is a movement happening where there is encouragement to talk to children about different parts of the body appropriately and not use euphemisms or weird names.
I think it’s great to start instilling that in children now. If something were to happen to them, they would be able to better articulate and tell you exactly what happened. That’s reason enough. And when they time comes that they feel like they’re ready and able to make those decisions to have sex - I’m not saying they should be making their sexual debut at 13. No, please don’t do that, but maybe 16 or 17, at the end of the day I might be like, you know it’s your body. Be safe, do what you want with it.
And there’s a lot to that. For me, I’m trying to learn these things for myself. There’s just not enough discussion about it and it does come with a very high shame factor.
Even this kind of discussion that we’re having is wrong in some way and that’s not right. It’s weird to me that people put so much morality on something that is needed to populate our species. No matter what, this is biologically necessary for us as a collective. I don’t know, I guess I’m just of the mindset that if you’re doing it in a healthy, safe, consensual way why does it matter?
I think part of it is that it’s almost never those three things. It’s hopefully consensual at bare bones, but how many actually have healthy knowledge of what sex is. Men still don’t really know women’s bodies. There’s jokes about finding the clit and G spot. Or they’re not communicating in a way that’s healthy. So, how much of it is actually healthy sex practices? I swear to God it better be consensual, but I’ve come to learn consent can be gray. There now needs to be enthusiastic consent but a lot of guys are realizing how much they’ve pressed the boundaries on that. And safe? There’s still the joke of how hard it is to get a guy to wear a condom. Like dude, wear one. Yeah, those are the things you’re asking for and you might be more equipped than most people, but those are some of the hardest things to get. People often put their own morality on things because they think they’re right and they think other people should be acting the same way they are. Most of the time they’re not right because they’re trying to force people into something. So that makes it difficult, especially if you’re getting it from the church or a political party who’s trying to cover a huge swath of people.
I think for me personally, a lot of it comes down to controlling women. We’ve been controlled since the dawn of time and the more freedom women get the more scared men get. So they have to think of new ways to keep up in line. Of course, the goal of the oppressors is to get the oppressed to oppress each other.
I have been hearing a lot more of these discussions framed this way more recently. Not that I haven’t ever heard it, I think it’s just a new framing.
I’ve noticed that anytime women start to do something 110% just for them, that topic or thing becomes disvalued by men. For the longest time in society you were supposed to wear makeup to make yourself look better. Now, with the help of the internet, women are doing makeup to make themselves to feel great and beautiful. The joke is like, oh you got to take her swimming on the first date. To which I’m like, if you find her attractive with makeup, what do you think? That she’s gonna stop wearing it when she dates you?
So much of culture is putting expectations on how they think women should and should not act. It’s this expectation that women have to act in a certain way and if they don’t then they’ll be shamed for it.
It was interesting in your last series, I remember there was one guy who thought purity was like nothing, like it was untouched. It was this greatness and he tried making it sound really poetic and religious. I don’t want to project what he was thinking but I found it interesting to juxtapose that with the two other ladies in the article that saw it as constraining and constricting.
I have heard that men do go through shaming and toxic male body image. It’s nothing like what women go through. There is this ideal male image they have to hold to which is how we get toxic masculinity. I think that’s one of the interesting things that I found that men do has these issues as well. They have an ideal that if they don’t reach it they get shamed and they project their hurts and their traumas and wounds on women specifically.
I think we see that specifically with the rise of in cells. I think learning about purity culture is so interesting for a woman. She’s not supposed to have sex but a man is supposed to have lots of sex. The question is, who are all these men having sex with? Let’s be real. When your definition of being a man is the amount of women that you quote conquer and no woman wants to date you, but you think it’s your right as a man to have all this sex - this leads to all this toxic messaging and sexism. It can lead to this huge violence against women.
“The goal of the oppressor is to get the oppressed to oppress each other.”
And women are sexual beings who will have sex with men if they aren’t assholes, like they would. What you’re saying is how we get sexual assault because they do force themselves on women. If they really were good guys who didn’t view women as objects and treated them like people it could be really great sex between two people who really cared for each other. Or even if they just wanted to have fun. It’s just that really toxic cycle that will spin on itself, which is not good.
I don’t know how much this has to do with all of this, but a lot of them will say women are shallow and only date hot men. That if the guy was more attractive then they’d have sex with them, to which I go, do you know the amount of the tropes we have of hot wife ugly husband? Women are able to see past the physical and want to date someone who respects them, is nice to them, and is in general a good person. Like, don’t get me wrong I simp for himbos but I also will go for a guy that isn’t super hot but is super nice who wants to go on adventures and is fun.
I mean same. I like the teddy bear guys, they’re cute and you can cuddle with them but also, I do love the string bean surfer boys.
I don’t know what it is about string beans but they’re attracted to fuller women. I don’t get it. It’s like you can wear my clothes and I don’t like that.
I want to wear your clothes.
Yeah. I don’t like that you can put on my sweatshirt and I don’t like that.
Thank you again to Gabby for chatting with me.
Next week we will be getting a bit kinky with the gay community. It’s gonna be fun, you won’t want to miss it.
Calling Out: Sex & Sexuality - Part 1
This week we start our dive into a discussion on Sex & Sexuality. We will be looking at topics relating to these subjects, some of which may not seem entirely relevant, but they are. Topics like male and female body image, consent, cat-calling, and plain old listening.
The format is different than the last series - there were no questions. This was an informal discussion about the topic and I let the conversation go where it needed and wanted to.
To let you the reader know, this was a 3-hour long discussion and I couldn’t include everything. If you are interested in all that was said, shoot me a message and I’ll send you the full transcript.
Without further ado, let me introduce Josh Gauthier. He is a writer and novelist from Maine. He has a brand new book out that’s pretty great - you should go buy it. He is a wordsmith, a complete nerd, and a dear friend of mine.
Hi. So thank you for being willing to sit down and talk with me. I know in our last interview we talked about how you grew up in a very conservative culture. I grew up similarly and a lot of people I had spoken to agreed that no one really talks about sex and sexuality within the church. It’s a subconscious thing that’s not spoken about explicitly. Then people shape their own ideas about it or they fumble through life trying to figure it out. It can be toxic or it can be healthy. There’s a lot to all of this, I know.
Yeah, and I probably will have a lot of thoughts on all of that. So we’ll see what’s interesting and where things end up.
If you would like, could you speak more to the male side of things?
Yeah, ok. So I think I mentioned some before with the circles I’m in that we talk about a lot of this stuff. It’s a lot of different things, but about gender, sexuality, and the patriarchy. That’s a common discussion. So, I get pieces of the perspective from all over. [And looking at this from the beginning] there’s this inability to have a reasonable conversation or be informed about sex or the other sex. Then even the people who do sincerely want to talk about it have to overcome those barriers before you can get anything done. It’s like you have to convince people that this is a reasonable thing to talk about or even know about.
I understand that. There were definitely times in my life where you couldn’t even say the word sex. You just didn’t do that. Then I got past that and it was still this huge obscure thing that I was intrigued with, but ya know don’t do it or you’ll go to hell or die from an STI or get a baby. Now I’m fine with everything, but there’s all these other layers that come with it. There’s so much emotional, spiritual, physical, and societal layers. It’s all very real and I’m not scared of any of these layers, so let’s talk about it.
Right. Why not? There are very serious pieces to it with some deeper repercussions, but the way it’s often handled is not right. It’s a very basic human impulse and to just ignore it and say, you’ll be fine. That’s not good.
Ignoring anything and hoping it’ll go away is not going to work. You have to acknowledge it then work through it.
Exactly.
“This is not shameful, this is something to take care of. It’s an important piece of your life to handle responsibly.”
And I think you’re right. It is a basic human impulse. God gave it to us, this ability to be sexual, but we’re supposed to steward that in a certain way. That’s part of control. That’s part of getting older and maturity, but we’re still made to be that.
I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head but I’ve seen comparisons of informed sex ed vs abstinence only education and they looked at the rates of unwanted pregnancies and STI’s. It’s so much higher on the abstinence only side because they’re told don’t do this. Then when they do decide and make those decisions they have no base of knowledge to work from. I think that carries all the way through to the wedding night. When people do get married and they’re terrified because they have no idea what they’re doing.
It’s definitely about being informed and telling people what sex is. Giving them information to make the right decisions and part of that is not shaming them when and if they decide to have sex. Instead say, hey, these are the consequences good and bad of what will happen if you do and if you don’t. I think everything, at least in the church, is always skewed negatively in that kind of conversation.
Right. Well, they’re told sex outside of marriage is terrible and bad, but then they watch TV and read books and hear from their friends who say, hey, this is really enjoyable. So, when those two things are at odd with each other, there’s no way to really reconcile it. They have to decide which one is lying to them and one side is louder and more persuasive than the other just by default. I liked your stewardship term. This is not shameful, this is something to take care of. It’s an important piece of your life to handle responsibly. And that puts it in an entirely different framework where it is a good thing that you will enjoy and it’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s being mindful of what you do with that and it will be better for you in the long run.
Right and I think a lot of this starts by being open and vulnerable and just wanting to talk about it. Like, I want to know if and when I’m wrong. Please correct me, let’s have a conversation. I think there are topics that need to be heard and need to be said because I was raised in a place where we didn’t talk about anything. I have friends that talk about the heteronormative and I’m realizing how ingrained in me that is. I never realized it before because I grew up very conservative, white, straight, living in a small town. So, now, it’s just having these conversations.
Well, it’s interesting how much culture and history plays a role in that because 50 years ago women couldn’t open their own bank account. We talk about how no one wants to commit to marriage and the divorce rate has gone up but then we point that out. Or that women actually have the ability to leave and survive and not be murdered by their husbands while they get off free. And there’s a lot more going on that hasn’t been talked about. If we can actually talk about those things with information and actual facts, it’s much more effective than assumptions of the status quo. So many people on the conservative side of it don’t even have basic medical facts. I hear some of these old white guys talk about women’s bodies and they’re so wrong. If you don’t even know basics, who are you to tell me anything else?
“It’s not the girl’s fault. It’s self-preservation. Like it’s a real thing.”
I’m still learning things about women’s bodies. Me, a woman, who’s still learning things. I can’t imagine a guy, especially an old white guy set in his ways. And I know in the last series there were a lot of men that expressed the same sentiment - that there was this kind of locker room talk or locker room mentality that men strive for. I know being on the receiving end as a woman, knowing that’s his mentality to just get another notch in his belt, it’s really hurtful.
Right. Yeah. I think I was talking to someone just today about this and how much it damages friendships. That women are realizing they don’t have friends, they just have guys who are trying to hook up with them. And how that ruins everything. It goes back to this whole cultural idea that men and women can’t be friends because there’s always a sexual attitude going on. Which doesn’t help anybody. It’s all this pressure. It’s this fear. My co-workers talk about being cat-called all the time. They’re just walking down the street and it’s this performative manliness or worse, they actually believe it. But it makes existence so unsafe for women. It’s terrible.
I totally feel that. I have maybe 3-4 guys friends that, as far as I’m aware, don’t want to sleep with me - you included. But most of my guy friends, like almost all of them, have wanted that. It’s broken my heart again and again. And dude I have so many cat-calling stories. The funniest one, this guy stopped his car in the middle of an intersection to cat-call me.
I thought you were gonna say he got rear ended which would’ve been perfect.
Oh that would’ve. I just don’t understand, what makes a man be like, I’m gonna stop my car in the middle of the road, the middle of an intersection, to cat-call this girl.
I’ve actually seen screenshots of these guys who’ve convinced themselves it’s actually a compliment. Then they get offended when women don’t like it. I’ve even seen guys calling out other guys in discussion posts on the whole putting hands on hips or the back when trying to get past women. Like, would you do that to a guy or have you ever done that to a man as you’re walking past? Man’s ability to delude ourselves is remarkable. Like, I just need to get past it’s completely harmless.
“Women are stripped of agency, but men are often stripped of choice.”
Right. Like how do you naturally go past someone? You can say excuse me and not touch them. I think I’ve freaked guys out before because every so often I will touch them. I’ll put my hand on their back and they’ll jump. It’s the funniest thing, because they don’t expect it.
Then there’s women who stopped stepping aside for men on the sidewalk and have run into them.
Oh I’ve done that too. It’s really great. It’s like men have this privilege that I don’t quite understand.
I mean some guys definitely own it and embrace it but I wonder how much of it is cultural. Which is not to excuse it but how much are people just not thinking about it because it naturally happens. That should put pressure on them to stop and think, but much of this is subconsciously ingrained. It’s the expectation that you do automatically and I think that’s where the good conversations about masculinity and relations come out. It forces people to stop and think for a change….I’m gonna circle back to what we touched on at the beginning if that’s ok. There’s been a discussion about age appropriate sex ed. When it should be introduced, not using euphemisms, and introducing kids to consent even through hugs, giving them agency of their own bodies. If they don’t want to hug Grandpa Joe then that’s ok but it’s more about convincing Grandpa Joe that this kid doesn’t want a hug right now.
Mm hmm. I’ve been seeing these as well. I think they’re great discussion to be having.
Especially with girls and women who, I mean you know better than I do, have much more pressure in terms of self-agency. Even at your example of guys flinching when you’re going past. It’s much more ingrained that the guys can make those decisions where women are not afforded the same level of freedom.
It’s also, very common for women to placate men. Where they don’t really want to give them a hug or talk to them or kiss them or whatever, but they will still do it to get the guy to stop. That it’s just easier to do that than say no. I have done it multiple times with multiple men. There isn’t the guarantee of how a guy is going to respond, even if you know them. Some guys will be like, ok that’s fine you don’t want to, I respect you and it’s ok. Other ones can take huge offense at it. So, you just never really know. From there it starts to go into conversations of sexual assault and rape and the gray areas that exist in that and why it can happen. Sometimes it happens because girls are scared to say no.
It’s not the girl’s fault. It’s self-preservation. Like, it’s a real thing.
Absolutely, and it starts here. With conversations with little children about if they want a hug or not.
I’ve seen discussions online of men realizing how many sexual interactions they’ve had that were probably not consensual, but they weren’t forcing it. The woman wasn’t exactly trying to avoid confrontation, but wasn’t actually pursuing it. They were just trying to get through. And it’s a really important area because it’s these guys who would never physically force a woman to do something, but go right up to that line or pressure. Which is very similar. I think it gets very gray.
Exactly because so much of what we’re taught in school of what peer pressure is and how the guy is going to be super aggressive isn’t usually what it actually looks like. Even in just giving a hug. It’s more subtle and the pressure is this expectation where you’re like, I’m already in this situation I can either not do this. Which will do one of two things - de-escalate everything, he won’t be mad at me, and we’ll still be friends or acquaintances or whatever. Or it’s going to escalate everything and he’s going to be super aggressive like what you hear about. And depending on the relationship with that guy will also influence that decision. And part of it is that you think, well it’s not hurting him and it’s not really hurting me so what does it matter. But it does hurt you. It chips away at consent because you aren’t sticking up for yourself and your boundaries until you get to a point where you don’t know if you even have any.
“Men can be awesome.”
Yeah, I’ve watched analogies that people are putting out now about money and tea. Some really simple examples of what consent actually means. Like you offer someone tea and they say no, you’re not going to pour it down their throat. Tea in itself is good and they might’ve wanted it yesterday but it doesn’t mean they want it again today.
Yeah and this concept doesn’t have to exist just when you’re single or dating. Marital rape is a thing that exists….So I do want to say, men can be awesome. They should be awesome. Where they can be totally strong and take care of you and lead, but be soft and gentle and supporting of their woman. Like, yeah, she can do anything, but also he can take care of the kids and that dynamic can live together. These things we’re talking about don’t have to be one or the other.
Right. I think it goes back to that social pressure of what men think men are supposed to look like. Which is not that. It then leads into these defense mechanisms of attacking and hating women. Culture has kind of built up this he-man image that guys are supposed to measure themselves up against. The perfect image for men and women is so damaging in different ways….I think it was an article or discussion a while back that was talking about the differences in the male and female body in movies. With women it’s always sexual whereas with a man it’s almost always comedic. So it carries inherently at the fundamental level. Like a woman wheres a bikini and it’s slow motion so you can see everything. A guy wears a speedo and it’s a running gag.
Absolutely. I saw a Tik Tok actually, where this girl was talking about the first time she saw a naked man and she was disgusted. She couldn’t understand why because she was straight and attracted to men until she realized it was because of the media. In film we talk about the male gaze. Most films are shot this way. It’s how female bodies are highly sexualized and you can see absolutely everything but not the man’s. You rarely will see a guy from the waist down unless it’s for comedic purposes. It’s what’s made movies like Promising Young Woman so different.
Right, you just don’t see it as for women as you do for men. Even regardless of color, it’s all the male gaze in film of just how it looks at women and where the shots are angled.
And I know we’ve been talking about women but all of this happens to men too. I remember watching 90 Day Fiance and these guys threw a bachelor party and made the stripper dance on the bachelor. He’s telling them no, no, no. You can tell the stripper is just there because it’s her job, meanwhile his friends are laughing and acting like it’s no big deal. And I’m sitting there watching sexual assault happen.
Terry Crews talked about how hard it was for him to talk about his assault, that he wasn’t even taken seriously because not only is he a man but he’s very fit and tough looking. You know, women are stripped of agency but men are often stripped of choice. It’s this assumption that any man always wants sex no matter what. That’s exactly the harmful pressure that gets put on men. And if men are assaulted by a women then it’s not treated the same way because of course a guy’s going to be happy about it, that’s how it works.
Yeah but not every guy wants to have sex. Not every guy even likes you. It’s a personal decision. And it’s something that’s hard to see in culture because culture wants to say men are highly sexual things that always want sex and are always pursuing it. So, why would a guy say no? If they’re saying no something must be wrong with them.
Exactly.
I think I’ve heard that a lot of trauma happens with guys because they’re told they’re not masculine enough or not manly enough. Then they’re stuck with what does that mean if I’m not manly or not this or not that? What does that look like? It can range from everything from physicality, like I’ve heard guys talk about penis size all the way up to their muscles and whether they can provide for the family with their job. I think it’s all so detrimental for a guy. I could be wrong, you can tell me.
I think you’re 100% right. Luckily I haven’t faced that. I’m not your typical alpha male. I’m more the analytical, sensitive, thoughtful type just by default.
And as I’m currently processing that perhaps that trauma, from not being masculine enough, they then project onto women. Like I’ve had multiple guys throughout my life say various things to me about all those aspects. They project it onto me about what I should expect their masculinity should be like. Or what the ideal should be. Things like I’m the best you’ve ever had, only I can provide this, I’m the biggest, whatever. The fragility of the male ego is astounding.
I think they’re all self-perpetuating cycles. I think it’s either that men have been hurt or they’re afraid of being hurt by those things. Sometimes it’s men who have been challenged and made fun of for those things but also, I think we see it in entitled men. So it has to be preserved at all costs.
I know we have to wrap up soon, is there anything else you want to add?
The short version, there’s not enough open, honest, and informed conversations. And all of this takes place within a culture that has self-perpetuating structures that affect men and women and their interactions with each other. So, if we could take a step back, stop being defensive, and talk honestly then we could find that middle ground that’s less reactionary. One that has biblical and sensible rules where God blends health and safety at its core. Keeping consent and mindfulness and recognition and concern for other people.
We’ll be delving further into this topic hitting on feminism, the LGBTQ community, and how it looks within the context of marriage.
I hope you stay tuned and continue to follow me as I walk down this road.
Wanna Hear from Someone New?
Starting next week we’ll be hearing from a variety of people on the topic of sex and sexuality.
This time it will be a bit different as we will be talking to people from different ages (getting perspectives from boomers to gen z), those that are married, single, and in-between, as well as straight to the LGBTQ+ community.
People will have similar questions, but not the exact same ones this time (granted, there might be overlap with similarities here or there) - and each post will be dedicated to one person at a time so it flows more like a conversation.
As a heads up, I will not be asking about sex lives or personal sexual experiences. If the interviewee wants to share any details of that nature then that is their choice. If it gets too explicit, I won’t include it.
The idea, as always, is to create an open and welcoming environment for people to share and discuss ideas without being ridiculed or shamed.
Let’s see how this goes!