Calling Out: Purity - Part 2
We’re back with part 2 of this 3 part series. This week we have a bit of a different take on purity. Grab your cup of tea, coffee, whatever and get ready for a ride.
On the mic tonight heralding from Seattle, WA is screenwriter Gabby Gore. We head straight down the coast to LA for animator Casey White. Finally, we pop over to Texas for screenwriter Chandler McGovern.
Just like before, the questions have remained the same. If they did not answer they either chose not to answer, they answered it in a previous question, or I didn’t ask.
Without further ado….
What does purity mean to you?
GG: “That’s a big question that I’ve never thought of before. If you had asked me that in high school I would’ve said something similar to society’s idea which is innocence and maintaining a sense of, I don’t know, morality. I think now that I’m older and I’ve experienced the world, my definition now is that it’s one of the covert systems of the patriarchy. It’s a weird masogony thing women harbor to critique themselves and other women. I think there’s a sense of innocence that comes with it but it’s been used as a weapon to keep women in line in these patriarchal systems.”
CW: “Two things - first is the purity of people. It’s not clean or good but authenticity. The authentic pure. When you’re a child, there’s naivety and childish. They are original as in they haven’t been influenced yet - it’s that unadulterated, not negative or positive, they’re untouched. Not to say that it’s good, being a really good person and keeping yourself from alcohol and sex - I think more of a child running around playing with butterflies in a Target parking lot. Second - on a cosmic scale, pure is like an environment that hasn’t been touched by man. Fresh powder [snow] is pure. If I were to run through it, it wouldn’t be pure anymore. You have to look at the opposite of manipulation - really, I know what purity isn’t.”
CM: “Purity to me is totally equal with sex. I never heard it without that context. It’s the image of the white wedding dress and all that implies. I’m not necessarily thinking this is clean and this is dirty, it’s about a woman’s purity and not a man’s virginity. It’s something that I bought into when I was younger and I fully believed that I had to wait ‘til marriage and it was this massive sin if you don’t and as I’ve gotten older I’ve come to see it’s not that black and white. It doesn’t mean it’s something good but something used as control.”
Who taught you about purity? Was it explicitly said or was it implicit?
GG: “Implicit. Definitely not by my parents, we never had a purity or sex talk. My parents are very liberal but once I turned 13 my dad said, ‘I feel like you can make your own decisions’ and he let me pick my own path with God and Jesus. We don’t really talk about religion, no lessons were ever forced by him. Everything I heard [explicitly] was from the church. It was never a religious thing though. It was never a God shames you, it was this is what happens in your privacy and you don’t need to talk about it. I think growing up, the idea of purity came from the media. I remember in middle school it was a huge fad with purity rings when Miley Cyrus and the Jonas Brothers were showing theirs off. I came into this rebellious mindset because I wanted to. I wanted to learn about it [sex] even though I wasn’t doing it and appear like I knew everything. I lived in Idaho at the time - there were so many Mormons - who are lovely people, I just don’t agree with what they believe. They were so anti-anything and had this disbelief that you don’t own your body and only your husband can touch your body down there. I was like, this is stupid.”
CW: “I think you’re taught and you have those bliss moments when you’re at the ski lodge. You see those angelic moments. I have been taught, maybe not by people who said it explicitly, but by people’s actions. I think loudness - if I hang out with those who are loud I think, that’s not peace. I look at the actions of those I hang out with and when I’m alone, finding what’s blissful. It’s kind of Buddhist - this riddle of life. You have to catch those brief moments, it’s always in the background and it takes a little meditation and zen. You have to clear your mind and then you’re sitting there in the zone. once you realize it then you’re like oh shit I have it. That’s when you lose it and have to get it back. I went to church as a kid and I don’t think that had anything to do with it. Church just taught me about rules, not peace.”
CM: “A little bit of both. I went to church when I was younger and lived in a really Christian conservative suburban area. Even when we weren’t talking about God and the Bible and what was expected, it was always present. Until I got to high school it never even occurred to me that someone couldn’t wait ‘til marriage. I even went to a Christian college and no one talked about it because we all knew what the rules were. In school the only time we had sex education was when we had “the talk”. I don’t remember it very well. I think it focused on our periods and to wait or we’ll get STD’s or pregnant. Abstinence was all that was talked about.”
Do you agree or disagree with what you were taught about purity?
GG: “I disagree a lot and I still kinda disagree with purity culture today. It’s being a lot more covert than what it was in middle school. It was being in your face with purity rings and saving yourself ‘til marriage. The celebs who pushed it were very much about it being my choice and it should be a meaningful experience with your husband and I was like that’s bullshit. I had a lot of self-love issues in middle school and high school. I felt I was unworthy of romantic love and if I never found that then I would never have sex. I was a horny bitch and I was like, I can’t die a virgin! I wanted to know this and I was under this impression that no one was gonna find me attractive or marry me - that was one of the reasons I was against it. I do find some of the tactics interesting because they’ve changed it. Instead of don’t engage in hook up culture, it depends on the person. Like, if you are using [sex] as a form of addiction or self-harm then yes, I agree but also, it’s saying you have to be in a loving long term relationship for sex. I think for those who can enjoy the act of sex and it’s consensual and they aren’t harming themselves or others then why does it matter what they do?”
CW: “I agree, erm, when I was in the church as a Catholic, I didn’t have any cognizance to apply it to life. It was only when I left the church that I did. By the time I started thinking about life and formulating my philosophies on life, was it then that I started finding things. I do agree because I don’t think I had found anything yet. I bounced around a lot. I ran from philosophy to different philosophy and it’s ok to take different pieces from things - you take what you need in life and that’s where I am now. That’s what I know. I’m still open to finding purity and it’s a constant thing to what you’re seeing and knowing about. It’s just a journey.”
CM: “I disagree because it created this really deeply ingrained guilt and shame about my own sexuality from a very early age that I didn’t even confront until I was a junior or senior in college. I remember being terrified of dating because a boy might want to move faster or want sex and I’d have to say no. I was so scared of that. When I started realizing that waiting wouldn’t make or break my chances in heaven but it was more about controlling women. I tried voicing those opinions and tried to start those conversations but I got shut down every time. My senior year of college I was reading Amy Poehler’s book and there was a chapter about losing her virginity that said, “Keep your virginity for as long as you can, until it starts to feel weird to you. Then just get it over with.” That really resonated with me. I went to my roommate and she shut me down so fast like that’s a sin, I can’t believe you’re even thinking that. She doesn’t buy into that anymore. Yeah, even that I was so scared because of shame and fear I didn’t talk to anyone for years. I don’t think that’s healthy, I really don’t. They put so much pressure on every budding relationship it’s so hard to have those kind of conversations instead of going at the pace that makes sense for us.”
“It’s a paradox. If purity is untouched then culture is touching. There’s no such thing as purity culture.”
What does purity culture mean to you?
GG: “It’s a way to police women and not necessarily control. I think it’s still a way to tell women what is and what isn’t ok to do or want with their bodies. When 50 Shades of Grey came out, they discovered there was a huge audience that was desperate for that kind of content. Now there are definitely issues with this book and it doesn’t portray the BDSM community in a positive light but there are women who want it. And instead of talking about legitimate criticisms it talked down to women would actually be interested in that subject matter. I think when it comes to purity culture and the harmful views of culture, the views on sex, they like to say you are wrong for even liking things like this. They condemn women who want to embrace things like this or anything but a monogamous vanilla relationship. It’s hurting women. They’re saying it’s fine if you want to wait ‘til marriage but it needs to mirror what sex in marriage looks like. It’s fine if you want to have sex before marriage but if you have anything that’s not heteronormative then it’s not ok. I still see that now as we move to a more sex positive culture. I see so many teen shows where the whole plot is keeping the girl from losing her virginity. Usually she’s in it 110% and wants to do it but someone else tells her to stop because they think she will take the wrath of shame. I want to see a woman in a show who wants it 110% and there are no negative effects. I get it if she’s not all in or is being manipulated but if this is something you are consenting to, at the end of the day this is your body.”
CW: “[laughs] I would say it’s a paradox. If purity is untouched then culture is touching. It’s the idea that culture is telling people what to do and purity is just being. If you tell people what to be - there’s no such thing as purity culture. This is Catcher In The Rye. It sounds like, fuck, I don’t know. It sounds like someone’s trying to be pure really hard and that’s the complete opposite. It’s like trying to be zen. It’s like you’re making these rules - there’s not one way to find purity and if you’re having these people who are making these rules - think of the 70s when people wanted to find peace, it quickly directed you to have to do things a certain way and people were forming large communes. It’s a quick way to lose your path. I think doctrines are way to lose your purity. Go to the evangelical way that tells you more than that, they say, ‘woah, woah let’s not do that’. Alan Watts said it’s like “making rough water smooth with a flat iron.”
CM: “It’s deeply ingrained in the church because I grew up in the south and to me, it feels like the norm that you have to wait ‘til marriage and if you don’t…it’s that Mean Girls quote, “Don’t have sex or you’ll get pregnant and die”. It’s also really toxic for growth and the self-exploration that you need to be a healthy, fully functioning, independent adult with a full view of sex and relationships.”
Do you feel as though purity culture affects you and your decisions?
GG: “I don’t do things or choose things in order to stick it to purity culture. It might inform my decision because it’s a reaction to it but I don’t let it in itself be the driving force.”
CW: “It shouldn’t. If by purity culture we are talking about humans that are telling you what to do then I will see that and get angry. If I see it too often, I will try to understand them but I will reject them. I don’t want to overdramatize my role in the world but we are a speck of dust and I’m only going to be a speck. I’m like you have to be dust man. They just make noise. I try not to get angry, you don’t need that all the time. It’ll cloud your judgement and it’s something you have to let go of.”
CM: “Yes. I do. I think, you know, the more I become aware and the more I educate myself on it I have started to dismantle it in my brain that I have been built on guilt and shame. It has played a really big role on the relationships I’ve had and haven’t had.”
What do you think are the effects of purity culture on today’s generation?
GG: “Because it’s trying to be more covert, it’s messing with their heads with what they think is ok. Before if someone released a photo without your consent it was shared and that was your fault. What were you thinking to even be naked. Now, we’re moving to whatever photo is shared, they’re the asshole. That’s how it should’ve always been. As we’re gaining more awareness about our bodies, we’re listening to victims and those with sex trauma - the more liberated we are the more sneaky the patriarchy has to be. It’s trying to be more shameful. Like, if you are trying to be anything that’s not monogamous, people don’t like that because they don’t understand polyamory. It’s all very heteronormative. There isn’t any space for the LGBTQ community and their voice. If we’re not giving them a space then it feels really, really taboo.”
CW: “We’re all on the Internet and looking for community and somewhere to belong or something to believe in. Whatever comes up on your for you page, you don’t know what you will absorb. We are listening and the louder the voice of purity culture is - well we make decisions. We can ignore it, be a part of it, or reject it. Of course we are a part of it in this modern globalized community. I like to think of Spain because they cleaned their slate after WWII when Marco and fascism died. Spain saw that and said, we’re just gonna forget it even happened. So, they erased it and forgave everyone who said they were sorry and wouldn’t do it again. They didn’t teach about Hitler or fascism. Now, there’s a revival of fascism and they’re alt-right. They’re very good at making propaganda and sending it out. There’s neofascism rising because they said, we are pure. Reporters go to children and ask if they know what fascism is and the kids say, ‘who’s Marco? What’s fascism?’ They're saying this is the pure party and we can only be this. These kids who are untouched or pure are now showing up to these parties and everyone is pure. [laughs] Wait, it’s a clashing of purity. Both sides think they are pure.”
CM: “I feel like I sometimes understand Gen Z the most. Some of them are so much older than us [Millennials]. I honestly don’t really know. I think moving from Texas to LA was so helpful because I was able to meet people who didn’t grow up in purity culture and had sex positive education. It created more confident adults. We need to strive for less guilt and less shame. I think Millennials and Zillennials internalize that until they realize they don’t need to carry it and that’s not healthy. For example I have a cousin who is so uncomfortable with her body and I think it’s part of purity culture. She didn’t even know how to tighten her bra straps because it covers her boobs and that’s a sex organ. And that’s an extreme example.”
“I think purity culture is a way to police women - to tell them what is and what isn’t ok to do with their bodies.”
Do you agree or disagree with what you were taught by purity culture?
GG: “I disagree. It makes me feel like there’s only one way to see it - a proper sexual person - and I don’t agree with that. I was never a wait ‘til marriage type of person, I was always a pretty sexual person and that was important to me in a relationship. I think if I had waited ‘til I was in a committed relationship then I’d still be a virgin and I’m not ok with that. I haven’t found Mr. Right and I don’t know when I will. I see myself and I might not find Mr. Right until my late 30s and that’s ok. But the thought that I might not find Mr. Right until my late 30s and not have sex until then is not ok.”
CM: “I disagree wholeheartedly because I don’t think it prepared me to be a sexually active adult. I think if I had waited ‘til marriage then I wouldn’t have been prepared for marriage. I felt for Daphne in Bridgerton and I know a lot of people made fun of her, but I think her character was real. It would’ve happened. I don’t think it’s good to boil it down that women have to be subservient or that only men want sex. It’s damaging to women because when women have those feelings they don’t know what to do with it. You shouldn’t feel shame for being human. I can’t stress enough how much shame is tied to this.”
Do you see purity culture’s effects in media, your hometown, your family, or your friends?
GG: “In media, it’s being covert. I think it’s so interesting with my friends and I think it’s purely geography, the culture you grew up in. My friends in Seattle have completely different life plans and goals. None of them have any plans to get married in the next few years. I have friends who haven’t ever been in committed relationships and have no plans to do so. We’re all comfortable with that. We’re totally fine with living our lives and we’re fine with it. I went to grad school and met others whose worlds are so different. Like, they’re the last one of their friends to get married and they think, what’s wrong with me, I thought I would be further along, I thought I would have kids by now. It’s so interesting to see how that idea of relationships has impacted their sense of time. That was not the world I lived in Seattle. It also talks about being a mom and this myth that if you don’t have kids by 33 then your eggs with shrivel up and die. The infertility talk is always around the woman and not the guy. It might be the guy. There’s also this idea that you should only be having sex if you want to have a kid and that’s not true. If we’re gonna be shaming them now, then we’re gonna scare them that they won’t have kids unless they start now.”
CW: “Yeah. I grew up in a small country town where you’re a farmer and you are told that you believe in God and that’s the easiest, widespread, universal culture that tells you right or wrong. There are people who attach themselves to that. My mother is a part of that and she tries her best to stick to the rules. I have a friend who is a nihilist who doesn’t believe in anything and who’s negative, which is the first step. In his rejection he thinks he’s haughty and true. He surrounds himself with that and he’s angsty. In my immediate surroundings? Yeah. My brothers were raised Catholic like me and now they don’t think about church. They were raised on a bedrock of it, it subconsciously sticks with them. You get a mix of people who are here who are told rules they believe will lead them to purity and others who are working who are trying to make money and trying to do the right thing - trying to make a living. We’re told by capitalism that’s the only way to do it.”
CM: “Yeah I see it everywhere. I think I see it less with the friends I have now but more with my friends that I grew up with because it affected everything we did. With the boys we dated or didn’t date because we were scared to go into that realm. You see it all the time in media and television even if it’s so subtle. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head was Margot Robbie in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. How she was sex symbol but made to look childlike, with this childlike innocence. It was like purity incarnate.”
What kind of moral, identity, or self-worth implications do you think purity and purity culture has placed on people?
GG: “Your morality is tied to sexual history and how you choose to present yourself sexually. I think of all the backlash when the song WAP came out and the comments those same people make when male artists objectified women in their songs. It’s the whole definition of Catch 22 that if you’re a man you have to have lots of sex and women have to be virgins. That in order to be a man you have to assert your sex dominantly and women will be whores. We still see that now when a woman tries to reclaim that power and sexuality, there’s a pushback from men that you shouldn’t do that or they don’t like that. That every decision I make is for a male’s attention but our decision’s aren’t based off of them. I think there’s still a whole sense of morality to it. Like Cardi B is not taken seriously when she tries to bring up real issues but if someone keeps their issues private they’ll listen to them. It’s a similar thing. A better example, Kim Kardashian. There are actual criticisms you can have against her like her cultural appropriations but the main argument they always use is that she got famous from a sex tape and the thing is that it was consensual sex tape. It just got leaked against her knowledge. If you’re gonna believe women then you have to believe all women. And if that’s what you’re using to knock her down then that’s pure purity culture and it’s patriarchal bullshit.”
CW: “Immediately I think of drinking and drugs. It’s funny because marijuana is the least lethal drug and drinking is so much more lethal. Subconsciously it’s like don’t do marijuana but they make bars a fucking thing where you can go kill yourself - and don’t get me started on sugar, it’s worse than alcohol. Of course everyone says don’t drink when you’re a kid but at a certain age you can drink and they’re like sure - it’s an odd thing that people tell you to be pure of. Slut shaming is a big thing. It’s still a joke with hookers and prostitution. Being a janitor is less pure - I don’t know why certain jobs are less pure than others. I don’t know why going to college, getting an apartment, and having all this debt is more pure. But being bohemian, since it’s not the traditional thing, is impure. I don’t know why men sleeping around is touted and advertised as normal but when women do it, they can’t. And we’re being more broad here. Purity is what’s not looked down on. Everyone has a little bit in them and you have these things you say that are good and right and are pure. Immediately there’s a tick because you have biases created by culture and they are instinctive, even if you don’t say it. I do think there are inherent structures that everyone is told what it is to be a good human being. If you see it, you are put off by it and that self-worth thing is affected by it. Worse than that, if you are unemployed in a capitalist society you think, I have no worth because I have no job. Purity culture is just telling people what is right and wrong. It’s an easy doorway to make a value judgement on people and easier on that you are making judgements on yourself.”
CM: “Inherently it lowers people’s self-worth because you build your self-worth by denying an essential part of you which is sexuality which you either never confront or you do and you feel feelings that are totally normal. I don’t think it’s right to deny oneself in that way. It’s important to treat sex properly, that you can get a disease and can get pregnant, but you shouldn’t deny it altogether. It’s a very intimate act and you should be consenting adults but you shouldn’t be denying it and that’s what purity culture asks you to do. When 50% of marriages end in divorce you can’t say that marriage is the end all be all. You have to look for companionship and partnership.”
“You shouldn’t feel shame for being human.”
Do you think your religion or lack thereof has something to say about purity and purity culture? If so, what and do you agree with it?
CW: “Yes and no. If you are a Taoist monk you will be asked, ‘what are you’ and you will answer, ‘I’m a human’. They’re very hard to talk about. If you go to a priest they are so specific because they’re thinking about it a lot. If you are a theist and you believe in something you are immediately setting up rules in your mind, economics besides, as to what is good and right and pure. Atheists are people that just don’t think about it that often.”
CM: “Girl, yeah. I feel like Christinas are at the forefront of purity culture and not in the good way. They tell us not to judge and then they go ‘I’m gonna judge you’.”
Do you think your parents or boomers in general have something to say about purity and purity culture? If so, what and do you agree with it?
GG: “I think it depends on the boomer. I think they are still trying to sus out what they are ok with. They are forward with accepting new thoughts and liberal boomers are going to be more accepted and open. I’m a child of a messy divorce so when it comes to the endgame of purity culture, as in getting married, my parents are not pushing for me to do so. They more want me to figure out my life, however they want grandkids but they also expressed that they don’t want me to have kids out of wedlock. I am confusion [laughs]. I don’t think it’s purity culture with my mom because nowhere in my family did they say Jesus wants you to wait ‘til marriage, they just didn’t talk about it. I don’t think it was a religious thing, I think it was a prude thing. It’s just where she’s at. I know my mom gets weirded out if a couple has a baby before they get married. She’s like that’s out of order. Specifically my mom thinks that marriage is the true last word that proves you are 110% committed to someone. That the most important relationship you have with someone is with your spouse, excluding kids, that’s the one that holds the ultimate weight. When I have gone on trips with friends she is always second guessing my decisions and I think if I was married and said my husband and I were going somewhere she’d say ok, have fun. It’s just this huge emphasis on marriage and it being the ultimate thing.”
CW: “I think they’re the first to talk about it. Again once you start talking about it, you lost it. That generation was the group after the greatest generation of the greatest war who took down the baddest bad guy - and then they had children [the boomers]. They tried to live up to that promise and they either did and that’s the nuclear family or you get the hippies or you get Vietnam and people with PTSD and the dive into nihilism and this dive into how purity culture began. The ramifications after WWII, everyone agreed that they were good and right - we’re the third generation down - often the boomers who reject and are trying to stick to their values want a comfy blanket. That’s what the boomers are doing in the face of purity culture. They go, no I’m right and I’m good and I’m going to be safe and sound and I’m not going to be sad. People cling to that because it makes the feel safe and we are living in a generation that is beginning to question the effects of those who are screaming at us from their blankets. I’m not saying you should take off your blanket, everyone has a blanket - even I have a blanket.”
Do you think men and women are taught/told different things about purity? If so what? Do you agree?
GG: “I think there is still the narrative with women that you should be in a committed relationship and it sucks because men can’t get pregnant. Anything that happens is your fault and you have to deal with it. Men inflict it and women have to deal with it. There’s a lot of fear. At the end of the day you have to deal with a child, if that’s what comes from it. So many men send dick pics and you don’t see them losing their jobs but if a nude photo of a woman leaks it ruins her life. I think there’s still whole things with men that are patriarchal - that the only way to see a man is to conquer, so they get away with a lot of things sexually and they don’t have to deal with a lot of things sexually either. STD’s effect both male and female but guys can get a woman pregnant and never know he has a kid. It leaves an awful power balance. In order for self-preservation you have to be pure and if you are a woman who is interested in sex you have this whole society telling you not to. It’s so dumb.”
CW: “Yeah, I think there’s a difference in what you’re told. Women are still seen as sexual objects and are told in certain places that you have to get a man or not. You are told certain things about what is good sexually and men are not told that. They are told nothing. They are engrained with - they dick around. They joke around about sex and send photos. They are not told about their sexual role or identity. This all comes with a grain of salt since I am a man. We are not often told how to be seen or how to act. We are not told how to act unless you go to church then everyone is given the base line. In the Bush Era everyone went to high school and was told drinking is bad. Sex is bad and we won’t event tell you about unprotected sex. We won’t even give you a condom and immediately pregnancy was on the rise. That’s when the abortion conversation began. Yes, is my point. Being a man, oh fuck, you have to be tough. Get a good job, take care of your family. Also, don’t wear dresses or eyeliner or make up. These are the pillars that are engrained in us through TV and religion. I think that’s hindered society. America is such a young country and we think it would behoove us to keep out women from conversations and not keep out men from those purity conversations.”
CM: “I think, in a church setting, we’re probably taught the same things - that it’s a gift and wait. But, I think in practice we see this really differently where women are expected to hold to that because your virginity is a gift and if you don’t you’re a whore or a slut. Where men are told these things but they’re not expected to act in the same way women are. If they don’t wait it’s like they’re told good for you champ. I don’t think that’s fair.”
Anything you want to elaborate on or talk about that hasn’t been asked?
GG: “If it’s consensual and it’s not hurting anyone then, you do you.”
CW: “Yes. If you were to ask how do I live purely? I constantly question myself and my biases. I have a formed path that is defined as Casey-ism which is in the sphere of optimistic cosmic nihilism. There are 4 doctrines or rules. The first is: don’t be a dick. Most people follow it. The second: what can you be, then just be. It’s very easy to be and the cynical nihilist will come to me and go what? Number three: do. It’s very easy. Do what? Do anything but don’t be a dick. Number four: everything matters and yet nothing matters. It’s paradoxical - you are a human being and you have a consciousness but nothing matters. You could get struck by a bus so it doesn’t really matter but I’m sure what you’re doing right now does. On a universal point nothing matters and it’s very freeing.”
Well, that’s all we have for now. Tune in next week for the part 3 - our last and final part of this purity series.